John Owen (1616 - 1683) was an English theologian and "was without doubt not only the greatest theologian of the English Puritan movement but also one of the greatest European Reformed theologians of his day, and quite possibly possessed the finest theological mind that England ever produced" ("Owen, John", in Biographical Dictionary of Evangelicals, p. 494)
Dr. John Owen (Vice Chancellor - Oxford)
FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE?
The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either:
1) All the sins of all men;
2) All the sins of some men; or
3) Some of the sins of all men.
In which case it may be said:
1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved;
2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth;
3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!
FROM: T.U.L.I.P. The Canons of Dort
Labels: Christianity, Quotes, Sermons
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12 Comments:
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At January 16, 2008 1:20 PM,
Sniz said...
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Wow, how thought provoking. I'm still trying to reason out the last one.
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At January 16, 2008 4:36 PM,
said...
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Amen and Amen!!!
I enjoy reading your blog.
Love, Rosa -
At January 16, 2008 5:31 PM,
MamaArcher said...
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Sniz~ those are the kind of things my hubby and I sit around and discuss just for fun! LOL
Rosa~ thank you so much! I hope you have been blessed and come back often! -
At January 17, 2008 8:40 AM,
DrillerAA said...
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Time, space, and my own lack of understanding prevent me from addressing this issue appropriately but, here is the short version.
Unbelief is spawned from Pride. Pride prevents us from believing the truth. Those who don't believe typically believe that they have not done anything worthy of eternal separation for God.
Yes, unbelief is a sin. Yes, Christ died for all of our sins. Yes, Salvation is a free gift from a lovng God. However, that gift requires one to put aside their pride, acknowledge their sinful state, repent of their sin, and invite the Savior into their heart. The gift is not yours until you receive it. God will not drag anyone kicking and screaming into His heaven.
Just my humble and less than scholarly opinion. -
At January 17, 2008 8:50 AM,
Steve said...
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I have a few thoughts that may be helpful on this. Unfortunately, I believe that Mr. Owen was mistaken in his reasoning. He thought about the death of Christ in terms of quantity, rather than quality. That is, he thought of it like a math equation. In Mr. Owen's mind, the math equation read like this:
death of Christ = sufferings of the elect for all eternity because of sin
But the problem is that Christ's death was so much greater than that. It did something that the sufferings of the elect for all eternity could never have done - please God!
God takes "no pleasure in the death of the wicked", but He took pleasure in the spotless life and obedient death of His Son. And so to equate Christ's death with any quantity of sins as Mr. Owen does is not correct (nor Scriptural). We must rather appreciate the quality of His death. Israel put a price on His death - 30 pieces of silver; but we should not try to put a price (of sins) on his death, because it is so valuable that it is beyond estimation and evaluation by anyone.
Scripture never speaks about the Lord's death in terms of quantity. It only speaks of it in terms of quality and this is how we should speak of it. The Scripture says, "It pleased the Lord to bruise Him." And the Father said, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." And again, before Calvary "I have glorified it and will glorify again". His was a priceless death!
Hope this helps (Sorry it's so long),
Steve -
At January 17, 2008 9:13 AM,
DrillerAA said...
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Steve has given us a much better and scholarly opinion. His insight is greatly appreciated.
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At January 17, 2008 10:45 AM,
MamaArcher said...
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quoting...I believe that Mr. Owen was mistaken in his reasoning. He thought about the death of Christ in terms of quantity, rather than quality.
I think that the quantity and the quality are related. Which is what I believe was one of the points Owen trying to get to. IF Christ's death was designed to make salvation possible for all people. Christ's death made salvation possible for everyone, but it did not actually secure or guarantee the salvation of anyone. That diminishes the quality to allow for anyone with out securing it.
IF Christ's death was designed to actually secure the salvation of all of God's chosen people. Christ's death secured and actually accomplished the salvation of all of God's chosen people. That limits the quantity but elevates the quality, salvation was actually secured and accomplished.
quoting...Scripture never speaks about the Lord's death in terms of quantity. It only speaks of it in terms of quality and this is how we should speak of it.
I would like to respectfully disagree with this statement. I do believe that scripture addresses the issue of the Lord’s death in quantity. There are many instances when scripture speaks of “those whom the Father has given Him”, “the elect”, Matt.1:21 talks of Jesus coming to save His people, Heb.9:28 talks of Christ being offered once to bear the sins of the many.
I believe that if you are looking at this as in the quantity of sins paid for….that in my opinion deals with imputation. This really is a discussion on the elect, which scripture references often. 2 Corinthians 5:21 (referring to those who are saved) For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Our sins were imputed to Christ and He bore those and paid the penalty for them and His righteousness was then imputed to those who believe. What I believe Owen was getting at was: that this is an even exchange. If Christ bore the imputed sins of ALL men then all would be saved because they would have received the righteousness of God. But not all are saved they are still lost in their sin. How can one still be lost in their sin if Christ has already reconciled us? This would deal with his #1 point above and Christ's death made salvation possible for everyone, but it did not actually secure or guarantee it.
If He is speaking of the elect then Christ's death secured and actually accomplished the salvation of all of God's chosen people.
The last possibility (in conjuction w/ #1)deals with as Driller mentioned the sin of pride. If Christ’s death atoned for all sins of all people completely then the sin of unbelief should also have been atoned for and it would not hinder us from salvation that was already purchased.
I would like to add that just because God would “choose His elect” does not mean that they would be coming kicking in screaming. In fact, I think it brings a greater sense of gratitude for their salvation to see oneself as being chosen by God rather decided upon ones’ supposed own free will and decision.
I may have to have my hubby jump in on this one. He is much more articulate and able to address things in a clearer manner than I usually am.
I love all of the discussion, even if we do not agree on everything, it is good to spur each other to look more deeply and ponder upon these things!!! -
At January 17, 2008 12:34 PM,
said...
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John 1:12
John 3:16
Romans 5:8
Romans 10:9
Romans 10:13 -
At January 17, 2008 12:41 PM,
kamelda said...
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Hi, I just wanted to add to the discussion that in the same context where it says, 'it pleased the Lord to bruise Him' (Isaiah 53), it also says bruised for our transgressions, wounded for our iniquities, bearing our iniquities, our sins etc. It is in the context of Christ's soul being an offering for sin that God sees the labor of his soul and is satisfied. Owen is simply answering the question, 'whose sin'. Those who object to his conclusion still have to answer that question in some way, as well. It isn't avoidable by trying to frame the discussion along 'quantitative' and 'qualitative' lines.
All the best. -
At January 17, 2008 2:52 PM,
Steve said...
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I don't wish to drag this out and hijack the discussion, so this will be my only further post. Thank you for those who have considered my thoughts. I note that none of the passages quoted equate Christ's death with a finite quantity. That is, none of them say that Christ's death equalled a certain number of sins or sinners redeemed. They simply state that He died for our sins. And this is true.
Scripture does not characterize the death of Christ as an "even exchange." ...But, if His death was an "even exchange" for the 'sufferings of the elect for all eternity', then could 'the sufferings of the elect for all eternity' be an "even exchange" for the death of Christ?
That is, could the 'the sufferings of the elect for all eternity' be equal in value to the death of Christ? The answer is no. Christ's death is far greater in God's eyes than our sufferings in a lost eternity could ever have been.
Again, if we equate a certain number of sins or sinners with the death of Christ, then it would follow that Christ's death would have been of greater value if more sins had been paid for, would it not? So now, are we saying that the multitude of our sins have made the death of Christ great, because this cannot be!
Christ's death is as great as it could possibly have been. The work is as perfect as could be. The grandeur of the work of Christ would not be diminished if there was only one soul redeemed - nor would it be enhanced if the whole world were redeemed. It has brought God perfect pleasure.
Things that are quantitative can always be greater. But things that are qualitative can be perfect. Christ's death was a perfect work.
In the end, many souls will be lost, but it will not have diminished the work of Christ at all. And a finite number of souls will be redeemed, yet Christ's work will be as perfect as it would be if only one had been redeemed or if every person in the world had been redeemed.
Again, thank you for taking the time to consider this. I'll leave my part in the discussion at that. I do not claim a perfect understanding of these things, but this is how I have understood it in my study of the Word to this point.
May God bless you all.
Steve -
At January 17, 2008 5:04 PM,
MamaArcher said...
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Steve- I would like to thank you for participating in this discussion! I agree with what you have said here. I think that maybe our differences may be in what we mean by some of the words we are using. I agree that Christ's work is perfect.
I believe the main question posed in the quote above is for whom did He die? It deals with the doctrine of election. The differing views on election, to me, speak differing views of the atonement of Christ. These differing views have been around for centuries.
I feel confident in saying that we would both agree that Christ's work on the cross and His resurrection saves those who believe.
Acts 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” -
At January 17, 2008 8:31 PM,
Grafted Branch@Restoring the Years said...
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Ooooooooh! What a clear explanation. Thanks for posting this!
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